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March
23
Differences Between the 80-10-10 Diet and Other High-Fruit Approaches
Filed under 80-10-10 and Low Fat Raw by Frederic Patenaude
19
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One question that always interests me when I meet someone following a high-fruit diet is what is their specific approach. Many people follow a high-fruit diet while not exactly following the 80-10-10 Diet exactly as Dr. Graham describes it in his book.
In a recent visit to Panama, I asked Loren Lockman, director of the Tanglewood Wellness Center what’s different between his approach and the 80-10-10 Diet. Watch the video and after I’ll tell you where I personally differ as well.
What’s the Difference Between Frederic’s Approach and the 80-10-10 Program
First, I must say that I have learned a great deal with Doug. His writings have of course been extremely useful, but more importantly attending his live events and learning from him in person has given me many breakthroughs over the year in my overall health, diet and fitness programs. He’s certainly been one of my main mentors, and also a great inspiration. If you can afford his live events, I certainly recommend them highly.
I agree with the major points exposed in the 80-10-10 Diet. Here’s some of the minor items where I differ:
1) B12 Supplement and Vitamin D — I do make vitamin B12 and vitamin D important nutritional considerations for raw-foodists. Based on all the research that currently exists, I do not think it is wise to simply “wait to see if you get a deficiency and then supplement if you need it”. A B12 supplement is an excellent insurance policy for every raw vegan. As for vitamin D, deficiencies are possible (especially if you live most of the year in in Northern clime), so the best thing to do is to get yourself tested if you have any doubts, and if necessary include a supplement in your program, during those months.
2) Steamed Vegetables— Between a low-fat cooked food meal and a high-fat raw food meal, which one is best? Most raw-foodists will say raw is always best. Dr. Graham will say that it’s like asking if you want to shoot yourself in the foot, or the hand. So both are equally detrimental.
I say that based on all the nutritional research that is available, we know for a fact that a meal of steamed potato and broccoli will be INFINITELY healthier than a high-fat raw food meal with lots of nuts and oil, and I’ve been saying the same since 2002.
Some people have criticized me for not being 100% raw, all the time, and even promoting steamed vegetables as a healthy alternative to high-fat raw meals has turned off quite a few raw-foodists. I’ll keep saying the same: If eating a few steamed vegetables helps you stay healthy and raw and avoid high-fat raw meals, it’s a better compromise.
3) 10% Fat — Dr. Graham says that the ideal diet should not contain more than 10% fat by percentage of total calories. He believes that there are predictable health declines that occur in many areas of health when a person goes above that amount.
Going through the research available on the subject in various medical and nutritional studies, I find that the evidence generally supports this theory. However, the exact percentage is debatable. Even Dr. Graham himself, in person — is rather flexible when it comes to the percentage. He says “some people are happy with 15%, but above 20%, optimal health cannot be maintained” (I paraphrase).
So here’s it’s not so much that I differ with what he says. I found in my personal experience that I generally shoot for 10% fat, but often achieve 15%. If you’d average out everything I eat over one year, you’d probably find that my average fat intake hovers around 12 to 15%. I’m slightly above the ideal maximums, but I find that it works and of course I’m always trying to improve myself.
4) Calories. As opposed to Loren, I do think that calories ARE important and consuming enough fruit is one of the keys to success on the raw food diet. I recommend eating according to your needs, and of course those needs are different for everybody. A top athlete will need to eat more than a sedentary person.
That’s what Dr. Graham says as well, and I’m sure that Loren Lockman would also agree with those conclusions.
Dr. Graham feels that it would be best to increase your activity levels so that you’d need more calories, therefore eat more fruits and vegetables, and in the end get more nutrients than a sedentary person.
However, I can’t deny the mountain of evidence that shows that calorie-restricted diets and/or periodic fasting dramatically increase longevity in animals. A high-calorie, high-fruit low-fat raw diet combined with a high-intensity lifestyle is ideal for peak performance, but in terms of longevity, if it’s maintained throughout life it might not lead to increased lifespan.
Fortunately, our lives are relatively long (compared to laboratory animals), so there’s always time to make adjustments down the road. As we get older, lowering the total caloric intake becomes more and more important.
The last point is actually not in disagreement with Dr. Graham’s philosophy, but simply a different way to look at it.
So as you can see most of these are minor points, where my point of view slightly differs. What do you think? How do you apply the principles of the low-fat raw food diet into your life?
19 Responses to “Differences Between the 80-10-10 Diet and Other High-Fruit Approaches”
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Michele says:
Fred — Please fix typo under your number (2) comment on steamed vegetables, you are comparing low-fat cooked versus low-fat raw, and most of us know you mean to compare against high-fat raw.
Excellent comments. I agree on all points. I also believe that trying to strictly follow the diet as recommended by Dr. Graham can lead to serious eating disorders in some people who feel they are failures they they can’t achieve it 100%. Finding a healthful compromise is a key. For me, simply allowing a plain baked potato when I’m craving it helps me keep happy and in balance. So it’s comfort food … but I enjoy being comforted. Take care Fred. You are a voice of sanity for the real world.
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Charles Gregoire says:
Hi Fred,
Thanks for for this information and exposure to Loren Lockman.
I’m tending to resonate with the point that Loren Lockman is making. I have noticed that my needs seem to be decreasing a little lately. i.e. I seem to be able to get away with eating a little less and not experiencing any weight loss…Although I think it is a good idea to count calories at the beginning to ensure a successful transition (I appreciated this idea and it was very important to me at the beginning).
I’m happy to report that I’ve been on a modified version of 80-10-10 for just over a year and my condition is stable and seems to be one that I’ll be able to sustain indefinately. Like you I have allowed an element of cooked food. In my case as part of my last course at supper (i.e. usually steamed greens and roots of some sort) for what seems a relatively benign way of satisfying an undeniable craving (i.e. SVSs, usually my second course, haven’t solved this for me)…It is very noticable to me in my experience that cooked foods have lost their natural appetite curbing element (i.e. the more you eat the more you seem to want…encouraging overeating i.e. whereas raw food seems to be the opposite …i.e. leave you feeling satisfied with out feeling stuffed etc.).
Thanks for sharing this,
Charles -
Thanks for the Info!
1. VitD: Yes, Vitamin D is essential in (northern) North America. Defiiciencies are not only “possible” but rather pretty likely. Not everyone who hates winter is able to spend as much time away from home as Fred does.
2. + Caloric need => + caloric intake => + health? As our physical activity increases our nutritional REQUIREMENTS increase as well so I wonder if it euqals out or if Dr. DG is right saying that we would benefit from more nutrients. I would like to see a study that proves this claim, but I find that most claims and ideas by Dr. DG are rather backed by his personal experience and than real research.
@ Fred: in the paragraph with the steamed vegetables you mixed up high-fat/low-fat in the first line…
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Bill W says:
Frederic
Great article. I have been a fan of both Doug Graham and Loren Lockman, and was aware of their minor differences in approach. However, I tend to favor Loren Lockman, as I have felt his regime is closer to instinctive eating, when eating raw vegetation, without the formula that Graham advocates. Your input is highly appreciated
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Debbie Gordon says:
Hi, thank you so much for all this valuable information. Reread question number 2, you wrote which is better, low fat cooked or LOW fat raw, which might confuse some people although I knew you meant HIGH!! lol
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Joan Firestone says:
In addition to the differences you listed, I thought Doug does not really recommend drinking your meal by using green smoothies?
I personally love them and prefer getting much more green leafy vegs than the 2% recommended by Doug.
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///chris says:
Interesting. Still undecided in this area myself. I have tried the eat 3 times a day with all raw and I can’t eat enough at one sitting to keep me full till the next meal. When I do what Dr. Graham says and eat when I’m hungry and stop when I’m full I feel satisfied and have plenty of energy but I start losing weight due to low calories and I feel like I’m eating every 2 hours.
I will have to do some more research experimentation. As always, thanks for the video and information!
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Frederic Patenaude says:
Yes, I meant to write “Between a low-fat cooked food meal and a high-fat raw food meal, which one is best?” I just corrected it!
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David says:
b12 and vit D supplements? lol (to make a very long comment, short)
Good point though on steamed veggies vs high fat raw, although doug graham makes even better sense.
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FRED–LOW-FAT COOKED: you didn’t quite accurately portray Dr. Graham’s views on high-fat raw vs. low-fat cooked. Page 132 of The 80/10/10 Diet says the following (in addition to the “shoot yourself in the hand/food” quote you mention): “If high-fat raw or low-fat cooked seem your only options, choose the low-fat option, every time.” I specifically asked him this question when we were writing the book, so that strong and unequivocal preference would be on record, in writing.
JOAN–SMOOTHIES: Dr. Graham is not against smoothies. His menu plan starting on page 175 includes several smoothies, some of them including greens. However, he says on page 125, “Maximum nutrition occurs when our teeth are the first thing to break Nature’s package … rather than a machine, an appliance, or even a knife. So he encourages people to learn to eat mostly unprocessed foods.
JOAN–PERCENTAGE OF GREENS. In 80/10/10, Dr. G. recommends a minimum of 2% of calories from greens, with a range of 2 to 6%, as specified on pages 166, 233, 239. On a 2000-calorie diet, 2% or 40 calories would be approx. 1/2 pound of lettuce or celery, and and 6% or 120 calories is about 2 pounds. Essentially every day of the menu plan in appendix A lists at least 8 oz. of a vegetable (most often a leafy green or celery but sometimes broccoli, cabbage, fennel, or other vegetable). Page 216 (Winter Menu, Day 7) contains 17% of calories from vegetable matter, including 12 ounces of broccoli, 16 oz. of celery, and 16 oz. of romaine. So 2% is definitely a minimum, and when I run the numbers on essential fatty acids and trace minerals, it’s apparent that 2% cannot be a daily average — much more vegetable matter is far better, ongoingly. Dr. Alan Goldhamer of True North Health Center (a hygienic but not raw fasting center in California) strongly agrees.
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so what would you eat to make the l5% fat content??? I weight ll6lbs. thanks…Irena
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Philip says:
There’s an interesting post over at the Health Journal Club that makes the case that people should just not eat anything that wasn’t a food 100 years ago. Gets rid of the aspartame, bleached GM flour, high fructose corn syrup garbage they try to pass off as food these days. If interested you can read on it here,
http://healthjournalclub.blogspot.com/2010/01/100-year-diet.html -
Wonda says:
Great comments. However, I do agree with Lauren about eating all those bananas, stretching your stomach, etc. I just feel like I’m gonna barf when I try to eat that much food, even if I’m not taking in the complete caloric rate that I need. I simply eat until I feel full, but I do agree you need to have enough cals to perform at your best.
As always thanks for the vid.
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Hi Fred
Thanks for turning me on to Loren Lockman. I really appreciate his knowledge and the way he articulates himself. Great stuff!
Two comments: First … re:supplementing for B12 as an “insurance policy”. I think this is pointless and kinda misses the point. Someone showing signs of a B12 deficiency would in all likelihood have an “absorption” problem rather than a shortfall in their diet (whatever it is) … so supplementing would be like medicating … addressing the symptoms and not the cause. Aren’t we trying to get away from that?
And, second … so many people who don’t have success on Doug Graham’s 811 aren’t doing it properly. On reflection, I actually wish that Doug had called his book by a different title … because it seeks to escape the dieter’s mentality. It is a lifestyle that includes the integration of other key health elements, including (but obviously not limited to) lots of regular exercise.
So many people that are quick to cry that 811 falls short look at what Doug Graham says with their “diet” glasses on … and miss the bigger picture entirely. And that is quite sad.
It would be nice if people stopped keeping score and did learn to be more in tune with their own bodies. Most people lie about (or are deluded about) what they actually do consume.
Thanks for an interesting post.
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Lucas says:
In your book Raw secrets you talk about consumption of nuts and seeds, saying that they should be included in ones diet. But then later on say that in nature they are only available a few months out of the year. Should nuts and seeds not be included the other nine months. It seems that would be the way one would eat if they lived in nature.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated
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We eat the amount of calories that we NEED to do our activities, not just to get a lot of calories. We eat eNOUGH calories to keep up our energy + our mind + mood. Not more, not less. Each person determines that moment to moment. 2 years ago, I started strength training on Dr. Graham’s suggestion (I’m now 61) boosted activity + I eat fresh juicy whole fruit or smoothies before + right after to replenish the muscle glycogen stores. Without high activity I wouldn’t need so many calories. When I eat bananas I eat them really soft ripe even dripping into the blender with some greens. Very active days i could consume 30 such bananas a day, but not the more solid, less ripe ones. Have you all read Dr. Douglas N. Graham’s “Nutrition and Athletic Performance” book? A 23-yr-old friend of mine says he eats Dr. Graham’s way because he then has the energy for all his activities.
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Charlotte says:
Hi
I have Two question:
What is with uncooked grains?
I tried to let couscous in water, and then the consistance was like cooked, but is this food good for the health?
And my second question was, when you say eating 10 till 15 protzent fat, is it 15 protzent of the total weight of your food, or 15 protzent of the calories?
Thank you for your nice videos!!! -
About nuts: my example in the book was simply to show that nuts don’t need te be an everyday food.
Uncooked grains: NOT recommended because of indigestible raw starch.
The percentage of fat is always by CALORIES, not by weight.
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Tressey says:
Great and informative video. I agree regarding not going overboard with the high raw diet, but i have a few questions.
1) I have noticed that I tend to eat less these days and rarely nuts or seeds, how can I get in enough fruit calories when 1-2 apples, plus a smoothie holds me for hours?
2) How often do you (and/or recommend) eating steamed veggies, so as not to experience a drop in energy or re-immersion of sinus, pains or other issues that led to raw ?
